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I-Beam Upset


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By Matthew in Kansas City, MO on 9/22/2006


 Question, in looking at my foundation walls I notice that there are no pockets in the wall for the I-beams that run perpendicular to the other 3 I-beams that do have pockets. On my house plans it calls the beams "upset"(the ones with no pockets).  Does "upset" refer to the way they will be placed? Will they be placed on top of the foundation wall as well as on top of the perpendicular running I-beams? Thanks for any help.

Matt


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By Tom in Stroudsburg, PA on 9/26/2006


The term "upset" used in that manner is referring to the way the joist hang on the I beam ( if you shop these they are "W" beams). Study your print closer they may be showing just one side as the detail for both sides. A hanger of sufficient strength to hold the beam the joists and its associated floor loading would cost far more than the extra 6, 8 or 10" of steel to make the beam long enough to get into another pocket.
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By Matthew in Kansas City, MO on 9/27/2006


I am not sure I fully understand, not the first in this life. The "upset" I beams run in parallel with the floor joist. That's what is throwing me.
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By Tom in Stroudsburg, PA on 9/27/2006


Best guess without seeing the prints. I assume that the three main I beams are rather long. Depending on height to width ratios and the steel weight per foot these upset beams are nothing more than bracing to prevent buckling or rollover in which case they should be tight to the wall face at that point and could be in a hanger at that point. These should be much lighter weight beams than the main beam. Also they may be the same height but usually are smaller and almost never as wide. Your floor joists should be shown as going over the top of all the beams. On a commercial job these would be bolted by flanges in the appropriate locations but this usually requires shop fabrication, welding and drilling adding to much expense for the average residential builder. Am I getting closer?


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By Matthew in Kansas City, MO on 9/27/2006


 The main beams are much longer but they are all ( upset beams included)W8x18# beams. I will try to upload a picture of my prints so you can see just what I am looking at. I greatly appreciate your help, thanks.
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By Matthew in Kansas City, MO on 9/27/2006


 Lets see if these can be seen?


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By Tom in Stroudsburg, PA on 9/27/2006


ok, the above guess was right. If you start at the top of your 1st print with the beam that runs from right to left the w8x15 that is one beam 44' 4"  it will be supported by 3 columns which should be given in detail "A" as designated near the column footer. That is probably 3" structural pipe with the jack screws. The second beam running from right to left starts out as a w10x30 which makes sense due to the increased span and that may be about 16' but this changes probably 3 times. You have to check detail "B" to see if this changes to engineered lumber or if one of those 2 sections of beam continue over the stairway framing. The 3rd is the w8x18 on the right segment, again this may run the other way above the stair framing. And so it goes with the last beam I can see at the bottom. These will all be in beam pockets at the walls even thought the print is not clear on that. The upset beams are doing exactly as I described in the other post. They are running top to bottom on your print (w8x18) they will have a special hanger that attach's them to your long main beams. So the first one going from main beam 1 to 2 in the upper right will be roughly 12' long and have hangers on each eng that will keep that beam at the same elevation of the main beam or it maybe 11/2" lower to accommodate a nailer attached to it if they drop a joist out at that point. The short 3' 6" piece at the bottom should have a hanger at each end as well. The same holds true for the 4' piece at the top right of center. All of your upset beams are basically bracing. You should have a materials list and plan details for the beam lengths and connection specs. If you don't have them you will need a structural engineer to draw them for you. Just one other foot note your plan details may show the top beam 44' 4"as 4 pieces and although that is ok if engineered like that the structural strength can increase drastically by using one full length beam. This also reduces deflection that you feel in the floor. Personally I would not be afraid to use 2-44' w10x30 as that is the largest segment of beam used but that may require a little modification of the stairwell door opening, on the up side however your floor will have a lot less bounce. Hope that helps.
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By Matthew in Kansas City, MO on 9/28/2006


 Do they use special hangers for the 3'6" and 4' piece to attach to the wall? If so why wouldn't they just put pockets in the foundation instead of using hangers attached to the wall? Thanks for all your help you have been most generous in helping me with my questions.
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By Tom in Stroudsburg, PA on 9/28/2006


The upset beams are designed to prevent lateral movement and are generally not load bearing. At least in your case it is designed to carry only the weight of the joist it replaces unless it falls between them in which case its possible it has no load. How it is supported depends on the engineer. It may be a simple as a piece of angle iron welded on the top end and allowing it to hang on the lip of the block or a fabricated hanger like a Simpson joist hanger but specific to your beam size. These two methods allow lateral force to be displaced on the wall surface. A beam pocket provides end bearing to transfer downward force to the footer. However, if the pocket is made properly and a bearing plate is grouted in securely then the beam can be welded, clamped or bolted to the bearing plate. By grouted securely I mean that there should be anchor bolts set in grout to at least a depth of several courses of block but ideally they would be the same as your other beam pockets and be fully grouted with a piece of rebar from top to bottom and then the anchor bolts (or dowels on bottom of plate). By anchoring the bearing plate in the beam pocket and the securing the beam to it you accomplish the purpose of preventing lateral movement and if it is load bearing this is automatically resolved. I was given a rule of thumb for concrete block that is core filled, figure 250lbs a sq/in for maximum bearing capacity. So if one end of the beam is placing 10,000 lbs of bearing onto the pocket you need a minimum of 40 sq/in of bearing and the plate should be a minimum of that size and grouted when placed to fill voids between the plate and the already core filled pocket. It helps if your bearing plate is a few inches wider than the beam to allow for proper positioning if you don't get the plate perfectly center (level is important). If the upsets have no load bearing, the angle iron welded on the lip is your fastest, cheapest and easiest method to use. Again if your print does not have details consult an engineer.
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By John in Raeford, NC on 1/30/2007


Mathew,

 

I believe from what I am seeing here the Beam Marked Upset will set on top of the other beams and the foundation walls I do not believe as designed you would need hangers. I can tell from 24 years in the woods truss industry a good truss designer can most likely give you  a design where you will not need steel beams at all which should save you  a lot of $$$$. LVL beams can carry a lot of weight and  I have not seen a steel beam spec.ed out more than twice in the last 15 years.


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By Tom in Stroudsburg, PA on 1/30/2007


CAD file hope you can open it.
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By John in Raeford, NC on 1/31/2007


I could not download the DWG's please PM them to me.
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